official Covenant Forum

…no problem with him touring more long as he can finish the new Destroid album!

Still waiting for his newest Architect release to arrive in the mail…oh yeah, and new Haujobb by the end of the year (hopefully) as well!

Outside my girlfriend and ilex011 there aren't many here that are into this type of music. I was able to see Architect play live last year in April, one off show…it was so bad, no sound, Daniel worked his arse off trying to make it work. I loved the concert though, Daniel ended up shouting Destroid and Haujobb songs in some people's faces (there was no stage really…). Actually, the Covenant afterparty in San Antonio was the same venue…

*cringe*

…and as far as the music being obscure, in San Antonio (city of 1.2m people) I can think of at least 3-4 record stores that have both Vertical Theory and Vertical Mixes new on their shelves. Not much here in Richardson though.

Dismantled is an electronic band from the US, they will be playing their first EU shows in May.

Anyway, would be cool to see Daniel perform with Covenant, I am very jealous!

Yes, which is confusing as essentially stadium bands make up for what most think is "industrial/electronic".

Not a very large scene, the Architect show only had about 10-40 people attending, though Skinny Puppy had around or above one thousand people in 2004. Not sure how many people were at the San Antonio Covenant concert last year but apparently it was enough for Eskil to stagedive and crowd surf a bit .

Also, there is Headscan, Fractured, Download (who are releasing a new album!), and Skinny Puppy, (about to tour!).

It isn't that bad here, as long as you can stand only 1-3 good concerts per year.

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Originally posted by Vorbedacht
Outside my girlfriend and ilex011 there aren't many here that are into this type of music.

Mmmmm, though I'm flattered by your public acknowledgement of my excellent taste, I beg to differ.

First it depends on what you mean by "here" and "this type of music". San Antonio, Houston, and Austin all have very small scenes compared to Dallas, but SA gets the bookings due to a difference in promoting/managing styles within the venues, shall we say, though SA is annoyingly way far south. And suburbs of Dallas are pretty much considered to be Dallas for the purposes of my response.

Having said that, the scene here is HUGE and always has been. There are easily a couple/few thousand in this area that would self-identify somehow as goth/industrial/noise fans. Not to mention that not everyone "looks the part". Many people don't necessarily *look* like they'd be into this scene or the music or what have you but they do enjoy it and consider themselves a part of it.
And when a show comes, because we're right smack in the middle in the South, we get people from Oklahoma and the periphery as well.

And then there's the aspect of "this type of music". I was reading previous posts in this thread and thinking of how I wanted to comment to E's questions about the scene here and American music. Lest this get annoyingly lengthy, I think I will do that elsewhere. Suffice to say for now though, that "this kind of music" is actually kind of a nebulous term. The gothic clubs and events we have don't really play gothic music or deathrock or Batcave or anything like that. "Goth" is more or less an umbrella term that has to do with a general aesthetic rather than music. Clubs here will play powernoise, some ebm, rarely synthpop, and new/old industrial. Maybe a night will be specifically done for 80s or "new wave" or "gothic", or maybe that will be played in the smaller room at our main club for example, but by and large, though there are a ton of people into the scene, the musical selection is very limited.

For some reason, we're very fickle here in Dallas; the regular club-goers want to hear the saaaaaame thing over and over and over, while those of us who prefer other stuff are pretty much screwed in that area as there is no night to go to for anything other than that. Other cities are different, from what I've experienced. We're just weird that way. People *do* tend to come out for shows though.

I'd really like to hear lush's and erichazann's pov on this...

Okay! Off to read and respond to more posts...

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Originally posted by Evolutz
But still - the american scene isn´t that big, is it?
And american goth-music seems to be more like Marylin Manson et al...?

I am countering Vor's statement that the scene here isn't big, because I think he means in terms of comparing it to Germany- in which case, he's right- the scene here is *nothing* like what it is there.

Aside from that, no, it's really big. As far as interest goes anyway. Not so much for actual *making* music, though some really great bands have come from here of course.

Having been *in* the scene some way or another for around 17, 18 years (god I feel old) and having travelled a bit, I can safely say that the gothic scene lately in the States is less about the music and more about the "seen and be seen" aspect of it. Less about the music and more about the aesthetic. I like the aesthetic, I love playing with the aesthetic, but something that's really nice about Europe is it's much more about a love of music there.

I'm trying to be careful with my words because I don't want to give the impression that we're a bunch of superficial scenesters here. Of course some people are, just like some people in Germany or Belgium or Norway or wherever are too.

I think it has a lot to do with relative age of many people who self-identify as "goth". Personally I can't stand Marilyn Manson's music and he's about as "goth" as Justin Timberlake as far as I'm concerned, but he's had an undeniable impact on the subculture. Mainly in how he and his image have managed to commodify it and mainstream it with radio hits and tshirts/cds at mall stores like Hot Topic. Young people, teens, in various stages of identity crises *g* are going to relate to it. Poorly applied eyeliner and baggy pants do not Goth make!

Not that radio hits, etc are inherently *bad*...

So no, Marilyn Manson is not considered goth by anyone who is remotely knowledgeable about music on even a rudimentary level. It's mostly music for angry mainstream teens who are going through a phase- the merchandising labels it as "goth", so they call it "goth". But if you ask them who Bauhaus are they'd be clueless.

I'm impressed that the german EBM/Dark Wave/etc-scene is so well known in the states.

It's actually quite simply explained.

In the early-to-mid-'90s, the key to a European band's visibility in the US was whether or not it was licensed by a domestic US record label. Because licensed CDs were similarly priced to domestic releases and equally as available, they were as prevalent in people's record collections as domestic bands. So, for example, you could buy a CD by Spahn Ranch (a US band) for the same price as a Leaether Strip CD (both of which were on Cleopatra Records here in the US) so it really isn't that surprising that both bands were about as equally well-known.

In Haujobb's case, their first two records were licensed by Pendragon for the US in '94 and '95 respectively. In contrast, Covenant, who'd been releasing their first two records pretty much simultaneously (give or take a year), did not get licensed into the US until late '97. Although DOAC and Sequencer had been out for quite some time in Europe at that point, it wasn't until the Theremin EP was released in the US before Covenant had any impact in the US market. So basically, it all came down to licensing.

Now these days, with the advent of iTunes and other such resources, it's entirely a different story...

--Sharon

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Originally posted by Evolutz
Hätte ich das alles eigentlich auch auf Deutsch schreiben können?

You could have- don't know how intelligible the responses would have been though.

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I´impressed that the german EBM/Dark Wave/etc-scene is so well known in the states. Of course techniqually it is quite easy to get the information/ music via internet, but yet I´suprised that there is so much interest in the european scene.

Why is that? Is it because there are less musicians in the US or because you don´t like the american "goth-scene"?

Mainly because comparatively, Germany and Europe consistently produce good music and a whole lot of it...

Zitat

To me it seems like the american music-market is that huge and there are so many artists that it isn´t that probable that - born in the US and A - you develop any interest in "foreign" music.

The US music market is extremely narrow and limited. In the mainstream to be sure- it's all very formulaic. Interestingly it's similar in the clubs too. Of course every city here is different and has its own character and flavor, but your clubs will have a *much* more diverse playlist than ours.

Zitat

And to me haujobb is surely one of the well known bands in the german scene,
but even in goofy old Germany most goth-fans dont´t know them.
For example: in the german version of "facebook" (with about 1,5 mio members)
our haujobb-group has about 11 members...

Pretty sure everyone here knows Haujobb.

Zitat

and I´m a bit embarrased, that there are so many americans who are interested
(a part from Rammstein) in german bands, while I have to say that I haven´t
that many US-records in my collection...

Oh, we do have some good bands here and there. Nothing in the sheer numbers of Germany though.

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Originally posted by Kyron5
I'm impressed that the german EBM/Dark Wave/etc-scene is so well known in the states.

It's actually quite simply explained.

In the early-to-mid-'90s, the key to a European band's visibility in the US was whether or not it was licensed by a domestic US record label. Because licensed CDs were similarly priced to domestic releases and equally as available, they were as prevalent in people's record collections as domestic bands. So, for example, you could buy a CD by Spahn Ranch (a US band) for the same price as a Leaether Strip CD (both of which were on Cleopatra Records here in the US) so it really isn't that surprising that both bands were about as equally well-known.

In Haujobb's case, their first two records were licensed by Pendragon for the US in '94 and '95 respectively. In contrast, Covenant, who'd been releasing their first two records pretty much simultaneously (give or take a year), did not get licensed into the US until late '97. Although DOAC and Sequencer had been out for quite some time in Europe at that point, it wasn't until the Theremin EP was released in the US before Covenant had any impact in the US market. So basically, it all came down to licensing.

Now these days, with the advent of iTunes and other such resources, it's entirely a different story...

--Sharon

Wow, your answer was so much better and more concise than mine...

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Originally posted by ilex011

...

I'd really like to hear lush's and erichazann's pov on this...

I've been tagged! Ok, seeing as my internet is awful tonight I'll make this as short as possible. I tried to respond to (and counter) the notion that the US has a small scene hours ago. If this makes it, hello lucky number three!

The word "goth", as ilex already pointed out, is a blanket term for different non-mainstream styles of music and subculture. Also a visual style of dressing, stereotypically all black or very dark hues, sometimes also related to a either a vampiric and/or bondage type style of dress. Or alternatively the CyberGoth look that glows under UV lights and incorporates very ultramodern sharply cut clothes and sometimes very colorful or metalic. There are most definitely regional differences between the scenes in the US, as it's usually divided by city scenes as well. There are even some distinct dance styles that an observer may recognize as Southern or Western or even a city style. Here in Chicago, a large amount of us call it the "goth-industrial scene" because of our connections to prominent industrial bands. I'm sure I need not repeat the story of Wax Trax to anyone here. The early work of Sister Machine Gun will always be close to my heart.

The word that I feel describes the size of the Chicago scene is large. I stop short of saying "huge" because there are a lot of nightclubs and shows here on a constant basis but it's also a decently tight knit scene. There's a feeling of knowing pretty much everyone through someone within three degrees of separation despite the fact that there are thousands of us. Most clubs in Chicago play mainstream, highly marketable music and Chicago has a huge nightclub scene in general. However, we're a spoiled Gothy bunch. There are a few clubs and large bars that are not only exclusively "goth" in music and style but also open seven nights per week. In addition, we have long running monthly events, the most popular of which is Nocturna.

The various music styles fluctuate from DJ to DJ (roughly EBM, Goth, Industrial, Sythpop, Powernoise, Terror Rock, Electronica, Dark Wave, Electro-clash, and some Techno, Trance, and Punk) so if one gets bored of hearing the same songs from the same DJ, there are options to hear other DJs spin elsewhere. What is popular here are resident club DJs who play for the majority of the night on the same night of the week. Clubs close down on 3am-4am weeknights and 4am-5am on weekends, so it's typically a very late night scene.

As far as how foreign music affects us, I'd say it's a natural part we embrace. There are plenty of local indie bands to be had, as with any big city, but majority can name mostly European bands among their top favorites. It's a non-issue and the quality and quantity of European music, especially Belgian and German, are embraced and loved by most. Of course when an American band of the same caliber plays, it's great but really good music should have no political borders.

To touch upon why there seem to be so few American goth bands I have to say it: mainstream marketability. Most Americans like music that is created and performed on stage with traditional instruments. They want to see those fingers fly over the guitar strings and they want to see the drummer sweat and throw his/her shirt into the crowd. That's what sells rock and metal much more than the elctro styles. The idea of music performed on samplers and drum machines just isn't culturally ingrained. In addition, so many record labels and distributors want the artists that sell things along with their music. The really big labels just don't need to focus on bands that won't write a song for a lame blockbuster movie at the drop of the hat or pose with bottle of wine for promotion. It's a monstrous media machine.

So yes, there's definitely a very large scene in the states as a whole, but the media exposure is not there. There's a disconnect between the American market and those who love these styles of music, many of which are perfectly fine to not fall into a category of an average type of American. The average person hears the word "goth" and thinks Marilyn Manson and Hot Topic, which aren't the true representatives for the scene.

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Originally posted by ilex011
Having been *in* the scene some way or another for around 17, 18 years (god I feel old) and having travelled a bit, I can safely say that the gothic scene lately in the States is less about the music and more about the "seen and be seen" aspect of it. Less about the music and more about the aesthetic. I like the aesthetic, I love playing with the aesthetic, but something that's really nice about Europe is it's much more about a love of music there.

I'm trying to be careful with my words because I don't want to give the impression that we're a bunch of superficial scenesters here. Of course some people are, just like some people in Germany or Belgium or Norway or wherever are too.

I think it has a lot to do with relative age of many people who self-identify as "goth". Personally I can't stand Marilyn Manson's music and he's about as "goth" as Justin Timberlake as far as I'm concerned, but he's had an undeniable impact on the subculture. Mainly in how he and his image have managed to commodify it and mainstream it with radio hits and tshirts/cds at mall stores like Hot Topic. Young people, teens, in various stages of identity crises *g* are going to relate to it. Poorly applied eyeliner and baggy pants do not Goth make!

I have to say that Chicago also has a "see and be seen" element to it but it's not so much visual as it is to "make an appearance" at a spot. There's a large amount of people that show up to clubs wearing whatever random jeans or just throw on something dark without much thought because they are there for the music. Personally, I go out to dance. Socializing comes in a far second for me. However it's not uncommon for people to hop from one place to another just to say hello to a few people even if there's a long distance between them and their ultimate destination. This importance of consistency at attending certain nights is quite popular.

Also nice is the freedom of dancing style. There is a rather "Chicago-style" dance but it's very close to those of other places too. Ultimately no one cares if you want to hop up and down for two hours or if you're going to spin around and do the Grapevine afterwards. As long as you keep within your own dance space when it's crowded, no one gets a platform boot behind the knee. :lol:

Oh, and your harsh (well, not really) but funny comparison of MM to JT made my night!

I just wanted to remark that I know Haujobb *and* Dismantled. I think both bands are quite popular in Germany.
But I did not know out of heart if they are Germans or Americans or anything else.

Besides, may I admit that I like Marilyn Manson? :sch:
He's not one of my favorites, but some of his songs are quite nice. This DM cover for example. And he's not taking himself too seriously.

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Originally posted by kleineRatte
Besides, may I admit that I like Marilyn Manson? :sch:
He's not one of my favorites, but some of his songs are quite nice. This DM cover for example. And he's not taking himself too seriously.

No, no- of course no offense was meant to anyone who likes MM. My point was just that he is often defined in the States as goth, when he is not. That's all.

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Originally posted by kleineRatte
I just wanted to remark that I know Haujobb *and* Dismantled. I think both bands are quite popular in Germany.
But I did not know out of heart if they are Germans or Americans or anything else.

Besides, may I admit that I like Marilyn Manson? :sch:
He's not one of my favorites, but some of his songs are quite nice. This DM cover for example. And he's not taking himself too seriously.

Dear friend, no one should feel bad for liking one band or another. MM may be an extreme spectacle at times because he's a mass media figure but even I love "I Put A Spell On You". I also own and love a lot of early House music. I'm sure people could tear that genre apart if they wanted to but in the end, no matter their opinion, I still enjoy it.

Personally my issue is with the term "goth" being equated with people who look and behave as MM does. Some think it's an aesthetic solely or that everyone on the scene is depressed and/or angry. Stereotypes are hard enough to dispell without mainstream media feeding everyone with false icons for genres they don't give much weight to in the first place.

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Originally posted by lushmachine

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Originally posted by kleineRatte
I just wanted to remark that I know Haujobb *and* Dismantled. I think both bands are quite popular in Germany.
But I did not know out of heart if they are Germans or Americans or anything else.

Besides, may I admit that I like Marilyn Manson? :sch:
He's not one of my favorites, but some of his songs are quite nice. This DM cover for example. And he's not taking himself too seriously.

Dear friend, no one should feel bad for liking one band or another. MM may be an extreme spectacle at times because he's a mass media figure but even I love "I Put A Spell On You". I also own and love a lot of early House music. I'm sure people could tear that genre apart if they wanted to but in the end, no matter their opinion, I still enjoy it.

Again, yes- let me reiterate- I didn't mean to imply that liking MM is a bad thing, and my summation of who is attracted to his music here is a generalization because it *is* very popular with angsty teens.

At the risk of sounding redundant, I just want to make that clear. My intent was not to critique musical tastes. Just genre definitions.

I don't personally like MM, but that is a separate thing from what I was trying to articulate, lest I sound like a jerk. :p


(I prefer Natacha Atlas' version. )

I live near Chicago, and I have been into this kind of music for about 17 years. I do agree with Lushmachine on several areas, but there are really only 2 clubs that are worthwhile to go to. They are Exit and Neo. I have always preferred European music. I started along time ago with bands like Depeche Mode, the Cure, andNew Order. I think I was 15, but then it changed to much darker music. I still listen to this today. Almost every industrial show is sold out here. But you might be right in some aspects, because some of my friends did not know about Covenant or VNV Nation until I introduced them.

@ilex:

I didn't take your statement as an offend! No harm done.
Just wanted to say that besides American teenagers there are grown up persons in Europe (even Covenant-fans!) who like his music and his performances. Just to make that clear, I didn't suppose you not to know that!
It's absolutely fine for me that you don't like him and of course it would be totally wrong to say he was the US-American goth scene all alone. I wouldn't call him "goth" too.


@lushmachine:

No, I don't feel bad because of my taste in music - but in the case of liking MM one *could* feel bad. :lol: